HAND ME DOWN ME BIBLE

Post by ?ine Canby
Could someone explain to me what this song is about, and is it
targeted directly at Ian Paisley, or just those like him? My take on
the song is that it refers to people like Ian Paisley and George Bush
who use the bible as a smoke screen for their right-wing authoritarian
agenda. Also, when Luke Kelly introduces this song he remarks - "You
know, it's a very surprising thing that, you know People who not so
long ago seem to be enemies And now seemingly friends". Is this a
reference to the relationship between Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics whose
masonic members founded the Orange Order) and Protestants (who were
only admitted to the OO in 1834).

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that out.

Bob

FR. Des

2004-01-21 16:17:30 UTC

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that out.
Bob

Both are lected political representatives
(I.P is the leader of teh largest (most elected) politcal party in N.I.).
Both claim to be religious fundamentalists
Both mix religion and politics

Beyond that it is neither here nor there.

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-21 19:24:03 UTC

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that out.
Bob

Except for the fundamentalist tag, I agree in principle, but certainly not
in practice.

Des Higgins

2004-01-21 22:22:43 UTC

authoritarian

Post by ?ine Canby
agenda. Also, when Luke Kelly introduces this song he remarks - "You
know, it's a very surprising thing that, you know People who not so
long ago seem to be enemies And now seemingly friends". Is this a
reference to the relationship between Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics whose
masonic members founded the Orange Order) and Protestants (who were
only admitted to the OO in 1834).

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that

out.

Except for the fundamentalist tag, I agree in principle, but certainly not
in practice.

You are right there; Paisley is able to read and write.

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-21 22:51:30 UTC

Post by ?ine Canby

authoritarian

whose

Post by ?ine Canby
masonic members founded the Orange Order) and Protestants (who were
only admitted to the OO in 1834).

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that

out.

Both are lected political representatives
(I.P is the leader of teh largest (most elected) politcal party in

N.I.).

Post by FR. Des
Both claim to be religious fundamentalists
Both mix religion and politics
Beyond that it is neither here nor there.

Except for the fundamentalist tag, I agree in principle, but certainly not
in practice.

You are right there; Paisley is able to read and write.

Wow, biting criticism.... It's my turn on the seesaw.

FR. Des

2004-01-21 16:17:44 UTC

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that out.
Bob

-Whitewolf(Ray)

2004-01-21 17:02:41 UTC

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that out.
Bob

Both are lected political representatives
(I.P is the leader of teh largest (most elected) politcal party in N.I.).

Given

Post by FR. Des
Both claim to be religious fundamentalists

Bush never claimed to be a "religious fundamentalist", that's the label
those with no faith and an anti-Christian agenda try to pin on him because
he as Faith in God and is proud to admit it!

Post by FR. Des
Both mix religion and politics

Saying "God Bless America" is not mixing religon and politics... I would
have thought youd' support the setting up of Faith based organizations and
allowing federal funding to such orgs in recognition of the good works they
do with the poor in money and poor in spirit...

Ray

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to
have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fr. Des

2004-01-21 17:16:18 UTC

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that out.
Bob

Both are lected political representatives
(I.P is the leader of teh largest (most elected) politcal party in N.I.).

Given

Post by FR. Des
Both claim to be religious fundamentalists

Bush never claimed to be a "religious fundamentalist", that's the label
those with no faith and an anti-Christian agenda try to pin on him because
he as Faith in God and is proud to admit it!

Ok then I do not actually know if he takes the bible literally. If he
does, then my despription of him is technically accurate and non
judgemental. if he does not, then you are quite right and I should have said
both are openly religious politicians.

Post by FR. Des
Both mix religion and politics

Saying "God Bless America" is not mixing religon and politics... I would

That is not why I think Bush mixes religion and politics. He has
an explicitely christian political agenda. Saying Goid Bless America
is neither here nor there.

Post by -Whitewolf(Ray)
have thought youd' support the setting up of Faith based organizations and
allowing federal funding to such orgs in recognition of the good works they
do with the poor in money and poor in spirit...

It depends. If the reason for setting up the organisation is genuinely to
help
the poor (e,g, Salvation Army, Simon Community) then that is laudable.
Otherwise, faith based organisations give me the creeps.
I have not seen many that do not scare me (Orange Order,
Taliban, and all the nice little catholic organisations that abused kids).

It is not the job of a government to set up faith based organisations.
It is the job of the faithful. When governments do it in Afghanistan,
Belfast, Tehran or Washington, I get scared.

Post by -Whitewolf(Ray)
Ray
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to
have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Féachadóir

2004-01-21 18:08:55 UTC

It depends. If the reason for setting up the organisation is genuinely to
help
the poor (e,g, Salvation Army, Simon Community) then that is laudable.
Otherwise, faith based organisations give me the creeps.
I have not seen many that do not scare me (Orange Order,
Taliban, and all the nice little catholic organisations that abused kids)
It is not the job of a government to set up faith based organisations.
It is the job of the faithful. When governments do it in Afghanistan,
Belfast, Tehran or Washington, I get scared.

Ray obviously hasn't heard that the Moonies are applying for money
from the faith based initiatives. Watch the tories scream when the
courts explain the first amendment means non-christians have to get
tax dollars too.

Meanwhile in Ireland, before we get too smug, we have Euro and
Presidential elections coming up, and a euro constitution in the
making. Are you looking forward to the Summer of Dana?

--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir

-Whitewolf(Ray)

2004-01-21 18:59:44 UTC

Post by FÃ©achadÃ³ir

It depends. If the reason for setting up the organisation is genuinely to
help
the poor (e,g, Salvation Army, Simon Community) then that is laudable.
Otherwise, faith based organisations give me the creeps.
I have not seen many that do not scare me (Orange Order,
Taliban, and all the nice little catholic organisations that abused kids)
It is not the job of a government to set up faith based organisations.
It is the job of the faithful. When governments do it in Afghanistan,
Belfast, Tehran or Washington, I get scared.

It was "Faith based"... It does not discriminate about which faith, so long
as they account for what they're doing with the funds and are genuinely
reaching out and providing a service or assisting the community...

Post by FÃ©achadÃ³ir
Meanwhile in Ireland, before we get too smug, we have Euro and
Presidential elections coming up, and a euro constitution in the
making. Are you looking forward to the Summer of Dana?

God bless her!

Ray

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to
have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-21 19:27:56 UTC

Post by FÃ©achadÃ³ir
Ray obviously hasn't heard that the Moonies are applying for money
from the faith based initiatives. Watch the tories scream when the
courts explain the first amendment means non-christians have to get
tax dollars too.
Meanwhile in Ireland, before we get too smug, we have Euro and
Presidential elections coming up, and a euro constitution in the
making. Are you looking forward to the Summer of Dana?
--
"Ferr fíor fertaib"
Féachadóir

Explain 'tories' as used in this post please.

Bob

Des Higgins

2004-01-21 22:25:56 UTC

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-21 22:54:35 UTC

Explain 'tories' as used in this post please.

It is Irish slang for hillbillies with guns and big hats and great big
shiney buckles on their patent leather shoes.
It comes from the Gaelic Teodhairaíocht, meaning people who object.

You guys are so far afield on how it is over here sometimes I can't reply
for my laughing prevents me!! Moonies.............I gotta go.

Fr. Des

2004-01-22 10:21:18 UTC

Explain 'tories' as used in this post please.

It is Irish slang for hillbillies with guns and big hats and great big
shiney buckles on their patent leather shoes.
It comes from the Gaelic Teodhairaíocht, meaning people who object.

You guys are so far afield on how it is over here sometimes I can't reply
for my laughing prevents me!! Moonies.............I gotta go.

Then perhaps we should all stick to some topic that we cann all discuss
with some greater authority, like Ireland and Irish Culture?

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-22 16:13:09 UTC

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

Des Higgins

2004-01-24 10:36:29 UTC

Explain 'tories' as used in this post please.

It is Irish slang for hillbillies with guns and big hats and great big
shiney buckles on their patent leather shoes.
It comes from the Gaelic Teodhairaíocht, meaning people who object.

You guys are so far afield on how it is over here sometimes I can't reply
for my laughing prevents me!! Moonies.............I gotta go.

Then perhaps we should all stick to some topic that we cann all discuss
with some greater authority, like Ireland and Irish Culture?

No shit Batman.

I am just repeating your request; it was you who said they wanted to discuss
Irish Culture.
I am just trying to help;
sheeesh, such gratitude.

Fr. Des

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-24 17:37:07 UTC

Post by Fr. Des
Then perhaps we should all stick to some topic that we cann all discuss
with some greater authority, like Ireland and Irish Culture?

No shit Batman.

I am just repeating your request; it was you who said they wanted to discuss
Irish Culture.
I am just trying to help;
sheeesh, such gratitude.
Fr. Des

Quite right, but I'll not allow anti American flaming to go by unchallenged.
And that seems to always creep in and become off topic, not by my hand. If I
start a post it is someway connected to Irish Culture or I think something
that a discussion in this group would show Irish opinions. Pure and simple.
Consider this sealed with gratitude for your patience......

Bob

kateh

2004-01-25 00:52:25 UTC

Post by Roberto (aka bfb)
Quite right, but I'll not allow anti American flaming to go by

unchallenged.

Oh please, you'll never get it outa first gear ......with THAT attitude.
KateH :)

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-25 00:56:00 UTC

Post by Roberto (aka bfb)
Quite right, but I'll not allow anti American flaming to go by

unchallenged.
Oh please, you'll never get it outa first gear ......with THAT attitude.
KateH :)

One of my best qualities is persistance.

Bob

peter stuart

2004-01-25 04:49:51 UTC

Post by Roberto (aka bfb)
Quite right, but I'll not allow anti American flaming to go by

unchallenged.
Oh please, you'll never get it outa first gear ......with THAT attitude.
KateH :)

One of my best qualities is persistance.
Bob

Agreed. We've seen most of the rest.

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-25 04:36:46 UTC

Post by peter stuart

Post by Roberto (aka bfb)
Quite right, but I'll not allow anti American flaming to go by

unchallenged.
Oh please, you'll never get it outa first gear ......with THAT attitude.
KateH :)

One of my best qualities is persistance.
Bob

Agreed. We've seen most of the rest.

Got a mouse in your pocket Peter?

-Beacon

2004-01-22 23:17:49 UTC

[snip]
You guys are so far afield on how it is over here sometimes I can't reply
for my laughing prevents me!! Moonies.............I gotta go.

http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/Bush/bush6.html
"Christian values" in Texas

Texas is:

First in executions. "Thou shalt not kill. " (They want to kill all the
criminals)

Second in state prisoner incarceration rate. (They put a whole lot of
people in jail for long sentences [20 yrs and above] and a lot of them are
first time offenders who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong
time. And some people are there because of incompetent counsel. And some of
them are there because they are innocent!!! But he says: "They're ALL
guilty! Otherwise why would they be on death row. Lets kill them ALL!!!)

Second in rate of children without health insurance. (this is a disgrace)

Second in births to mothers aged 15-17. (This is a disgrace)

Second in estimated number of undocumented immigrants. (They find it easy
to find work at below minimum wage there)

Ninth in percent of children living in poverty. (Disgrace)

16th in crime rate. (and this person want us to believe he has the answer
to crime?)

19th in average annual unemployment rate. (His economic answers are not
answers, they are disasters)

28th in per capita personal income. (Keep the rich richer and the poor
poorer)

34th in teacher salaries. (keep the children ignorant too)

44th in percent of homeowners. (let's don't have a lot of homeowners then we
will have lots of tenants and the landlords can make money.)

45th in percent of high school graduates. (dumb the education system down.
No wonder he wants to do away with the Dept. of Education)

47th in cost of living. (that's because the people don't have any money)

47th in percent of voting age population voting. (keep them ignorant and
only your select few will vote the Christian Coalition members in. The Bush
forces fought against the motor voter act)

48th in per capita state taxes. (This means the poor have a very big burden
of taxes. But, if they don't have any money how can they pay taxes?)

50th in per capita state spending. (They spend very little money on their
citizens. Even when they do spend money its not on the citizens, its on the
rich people who get out of paying taxes)

[end quote]

Who do you think will win the electoral college vote in Texas or Florida?

Why is that?

212 identified Pioneers have raised a minimum of $21.2 million in hard money
for Bush's presidential effort. These 212 individuals also contributed; $2.3
million to Bush's governatorial campaigns, $7.1 million in hard money to
federal candidates and PACs and $4.1 million in soft money contributions to
federal political party committees since the '96 election cycle

Lawyers and lobbyists lead the Pioneer pack when the 212 are identified by
their primary economic interest or profession. Forty-four of the Pioneers
are classified as Lawyers & Lobbyists, 38 represent the Financial sector, 28
are from the Energy & Natural Resources sector (dominated by oil and gas),
24 are from the Real Estate sector, and 23 represent Miscellaneous
Businesses.

Sixty-six of the Pioneers hail from Texas. The other Bush state, Florida,
claims the next largest batch with 21. California has produced 14 and
Michigan 12. No other state is in the double-digits.

133 Pioneers are business executives, George Bush appointed 16 Pioneers to
state government posts, 14 have spent the night at the Governor's mansion in
Austin, 13 represent polluter interests, 35 have benefited from
corporate-welfare, 26 have been involved in one or more campaign
finance-related scandals, and 20 Pioneers have kept the revolving door
between government and industry spinning.

Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-23 00:34:42 UTC

Post by -Beacon

[snip]
You guys are so far afield on how it is over here sometimes I can't reply
for my laughing prevents me!! Moonies.............I gotta go.

http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/Bush/bush6.html
"Christian values" in Texas
First in executions. "Thou shalt not kill. " (They want to kill all the
criminals)
Second in state prisoner incarceration rate. (They put a whole lot of
people in jail for long sentences [20 yrs and above] and a lot of them are
first time offenders who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong
time. And some people are there because of incompetent counsel. And some of
them are there because they are innocent!!! But he says: "They're ALL
guilty! Otherwise why would they be on death row. Lets kill them ALL!!!)
Second in rate of children without health insurance. (this is a disgrace)
Second in births to mothers aged 15-17. (This is a disgrace)
Second in estimated number of undocumented immigrants. (They find it easy
to find work at below minimum wage there)
Ninth in percent of children living in poverty. (Disgrace)
16th in crime rate. (and this person want us to believe he has the answer
to crime?)
19th in average annual unemployment rate. (His economic answers are not
answers, they are disasters)
28th in per capita personal income. (Keep the rich richer and the poor
poorer)
34th in teacher salaries. (keep the children ignorant too)
44th in percent of homeowners. (let's don't have a lot of homeowners then we
will have lots of tenants and the landlords can make money.)
45th in percent of high school graduates. (dumb the education system down.
No wonder he wants to do away with the Dept. of Education)
47th in cost of living. (that's because the people don't have any money)
47th in percent of voting age population voting. (keep them ignorant and
only your select few will vote the Christian Coalition members in. The Bush
forces fought against the motor voter act)
48th in per capita state taxes. (This means the poor have a very big burden
of taxes. But, if they don't have any money how can they pay taxes?)
50th in per capita state spending. (They spend very little money on their
citizens. Even when they do spend money its not on the citizens, its on the
rich people who get out of paying taxes)
[end quote]
Who do you think will win the electoral college vote in Texas or Florida?
Why is that?
212 identified Pioneers have raised a minimum of $21.2 million in hard money
for Bush's presidential effort. These 212 individuals also contributed; $2.3
million to Bush's governatorial campaigns, $7.1 million in hard money to
federal candidates and PACs and $4.1 million in soft money contributions to
federal political party committees since the '96 election cycle
Lawyers and lobbyists lead the Pioneer pack when the 212 are identified by
their primary economic interest or profession. Forty-four of the Pioneers
are classified as Lawyers & Lobbyists, 38 represent the Financial sector, 28
are from the Energy & Natural Resources sector (dominated by oil and gas),
24 are from the Real Estate sector, and 23 represent Miscellaneous
Businesses.
Sixty-six of the Pioneers hail from Texas. The other Bush state, Florida,
claims the next largest batch with 21. California has produced 14 and
Michigan 12. No other state is in the double-digits.
133 Pioneers are business executives, George Bush appointed 16 Pioneers to
state government posts, 14 have spent the night at the Governor's mansion in
Austin, 13 represent polluter interests, 35 have benefited from
corporate-welfare, 26 have been involved in one or more campaign
finance-related scandals, and 20 Pioneers have kept the revolving door
between government and industry spinning.

So your point is that Bush has ruined Texas single handedly and therefore
the US is next ? Are you aware that the Harris County Hospital District
alone doled out $330 million in free medical care to illegal immigrants over
the last three years. Public health care costs are nearly one third of the
state budget. Throwing up a statistical smoke screen and supporting illegal
immigrants is a transparent, specious argument. Enforce the current laws.
Use the money saved to correct whatever programs were suffering because of
this illegal activity. A good beginning would be to follow federal law and
stop providing a blank check for a lifetime of free health care to those who
illegally enter this country. Then we can talk about pioneers, lawyers and
lobbyist.

-Whitewolf(Ray)

2004-01-21 18:59:28 UTC

Are you comparing Ian Paisley to George Bush? If so, please flesh that

out.

Both are lected political representatives
(I.P is the leader of teh largest (most elected) politcal party in N.I.).

Given

Post by FR. Des
Both claim to be religious fundamentalists

Bush never claimed to be a "religious fundamentalist", that's the label
those with no faith and an anti-Christian agenda try to pin on him because
he as Faith in God and is proud to admit it!

Well, you said he *claimed* to be a religious fundamentalist... Which he
didn't... That others call him that is true...

Post by FR. Des
Both mix religion and politics

Saying "God Bless America" is not mixing religon and politics... I would

That is not why I think Bush mixes religion and politics. He has
an explicitely christian political agenda. Saying Goid Bless America
is neither here nor there.

You misspelled God... Try it, three letters G O D!! Your creator!

Well in most instances it will help faith based orgs that already exist but
because of their nature, could not apply for Federal funding because of the
Seperation thing... And even yesterday Bush restated that it's not just for
Christians in his State of the Union address... But mentioned Cross, Jewish
star and Muslim Cresent groups as all worthy of recieving aid... I watched
every intently the entire speech and the Dems (response) afterwards... I
agreed with a LOT of what Bush said - wish he'd mentioned his stated aim of
funding NASA and giving them the goal of a man on Mars... But overall I
agreed with 90% of what he said... I wish he'd gone further on some
issues, but.. I'm not his advisor (thought I wish I were)... so...

With the funding comes accountability... First off the group has to use the
funds to actually reach out and help the community, they cannot use it to
pay themselve bigger wages or for expanding their group... There are strict
guidelines... You might still be sceptical, but even the Dems supported
this before...

Post by Fr. Des
It is not the job of a government to set up faith based organisations.
It is the job of the faithful.

It's not setting them up, I'm apologise if I misled you before... It's
extending the federal funding to charitable organizations that are
considered Faith based is all...

Post by Fr. Des
When governments do it in Afghanistan,
Belfast, Tehran or Washington, I get scared.

Sorry for the confusion...

Ray

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to
have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Alliekatt

2004-01-22 00:12:50 UTC

Post by -Whitewolf(Ray)
Bush never claimed to be a "religious fundamentalist", that's the label
those with no faith and an anti-Christian agenda try to pin on him because
he as Faith in God and is proud to admit it!

And sending 250 plus people to the electric chair in Texas has everything to
do with his bible-believing faith in God.

Here. http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0001a/fortunateson.html

You're welcome.

Post by -Whitewolf(Ray)
Saying "God Bless America" is not mixing religon and politics... I would
have thought youd' support the setting up of Faith based organizations and
allowing federal funding to such orgs in recognition of the good works they
do with the poor in money and poor in spirit...

You know, it's only in the States where Irish-identity white conservatives
try to make "Republican" mean the same thing on both sides of the water. It
hasn't, it doesn't, and it never will. Anyone who tries, is more interested
in validating their skin color through someone else's culture.

Irish Republicanism is at its core a socialist movement pressing equal
responsibility on all who join its ranks, whether that responsibility is
social or fiscal. Republicans in the States are not the social activists of
Lincoln's time but a political party bought and sold by those who want to
restrict freedom of speech and expression (Religious Right) and unleash
laissez-faire back on society through corporate interests. (Wealthy).

And these self-same faith-based organizations you tout as being so great,
include involuntary religious attendance as a requirement for reciept of
benefits, such as attending fundamentalist services in the Salvation Army's
rehab, or on a darker note consider "Narconon", a bogus drug rehab that is a
front for $cientology- and recieves government endorsement if not financial
support.

And Mr Hair-Pie's (I mean Bush's) $1 trillion dollar deficit caused by this
Iraq war would have given every single American free healthcare coverage for
20 years.

alliekatt

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Roberto (aka bfb)

2004-01-22 00:34:07 UTC